Adding %Haste is not as simple as +% to your Dmg.

[Jonathan]

Haste Numbers from Monk forums on KI. (Oh hey, the guy edited his post - 3% haste takes 1s off Ichi and 2s off Ni recasts)

Pretty much reiterates that for +Haste to be effective DD-wise, you need to swing a minimum amount of times per fight in order to benefit from as little as one extra swing.

Same way Sams using Store TP only get enough Store TP to reduce the amount of swings it takes them to get enough TP to WS.

--

So to use this morning's example, Fuma Kyahan 3% haste with Dual Wield Bokuto+1s = combined delay of 454.

Dual Wield effects for <45 nin - Dual Wield I and II = Delay reduction of 15%.

So the nin's 454 delay becomes 385.9, let's say 386, = 6.43s

Additional 3% Haste for Fuma: 374.42 => 374.
60 delay = 1s, so 374 delay = 6.23s.

#Attacks: No Fuma / w. Fuma
30s: 4/4
60s: 9/9
120s: 18/19
180s: 27/28

To make sense of these numbers the same way Pathwriter on KI did...

In a 2 minute fight, you'd get an extra round of attacks. In a 3 minute fight, you still only get one extra round of attacks, assuming all you did was engage and didn't cast. You would very most likely lose this extra round of attacks after taking amount of time spent casting into account.

So yeah >.> I've justified skipping over Fuma for Fed. Kyahan (+4 atk) to myself... although 1s/2s off ichi/ni would be nice, but still that's not needed. (Very rarely have I found myself in a situation where I'm waiting for my timer to be up to cast with 1 shadow up and hoping the mob will miss. Even if I get hit, the Whm skilling up Divine Magic oughta have some mp leftover for curing.)

With that said, if I had the gil, I'd still get the Fuma for the sheer e-peen of it. But yeah.. this is also a good example of why Haste gear is only situationally great for DDing, has me second-guessing my Turban.

[tarick]

The extra swings per battle thing is, in my opinion, a bad argument. Here is the reason.

When you engage another mob, your timer isn't reset to 0. This is the result of a patch that eliminated the trick that some long delay weapon users used to use (disengage/engage trick). You'll notice that sometimes you attack right away, and sometimes you have full delay before the next attack.

What this means that you are definitely getting enough swings in over the course of an xp party for it to matter. You can't look at a singular mob anymore.

Fuma sune-ate are still inferior to dune boots for monk. The flat damage on kick attacks is just too godly. 200+ crits are the norm. They are likely superior to Fed. Kyahan at 75, especially if you are using meat. I don't know if ninja's have many other options for the foot slot.

The hat, it is a different story. 10 accuracy (this is speaking as a meat user) seems to make a difference to me. My normal gear is +29 (shura, woodsman, pcc, osode, rajas), +39 (w/hat) acc. On many xp mobs, if I want to use meat, I need that extra accuracy from hat. Ninjas on the other hand use sushi, so they may be able to get away with the absence of accuracy.

Haidates, on the other hand, compete with only 7 accuracy (and 5 str, which is...because we never reach the attack cap, not that great). If that was the only stat on haidates, I doubt they'd outperform shura, but they also add another 15 dex, which is roughly 1.5% crit, as well as roughly 7 accuracy. So in the end, you're basically comparing 5 str to 5% haste, which is a no-brainer.

no reason to regret the hat if you're nin or /nin. I almost bought the boots as well for the 3% haste, because there actually were many times that I stood there with 1 second on my timer hoping that the mob would miss me.

[Sosa]

I owned the 3% haste boots for level 39 on NIN, and sold them. Until the higher levels, where mobs will rip through your shadows and strong support is vital to blink tanking, you just won't notice enough of a difference to warrant owning them. That said, they're nicer than pretty much anything else NIN can equip at that level, but SAM and MNK are better off going with the +2 Federation gear for attack until higher levels, when other gear choices become available to them.

And yeah, I don't really buy the "X number of extra attacks" argument either, since it's not an accurate model... but in order for haste setup to be efficient, the cumulative damage from extra attacks (assuming they hit,) must exceed the damage lost from the rest of your hits. That's not an easy thing to parse, so this will probably be a subject of debate for quite some time.

[nauren]

I had the Fuma Kyahan when they were available for my Ninja. Upon recieving my AF boots...I sold them and figured I could live without them. How wrong I was. I want them more then ever now.

I can't depend upon mages to keep me hasted. They have did a piss poor job lately. The Fuma combined with my swift belt help out immensly.

It very well could be the difference between living and dying several times a fight.

[tarick]

nauren said:

I had the Fuma Kyahan when they were available for my Ninja. Upon recieving my AF boots...I sold them and figured I could live without them. How wrong I was. I want them more then ever now.

I can't depend upon mages to keep me hasted. They have did a piss poor job lately. The Fuma combined with my swift belt help out immensly.

It very well could be the difference between living and dying several times a fight.

If the whm won't haste you, you're better off dying and hping.

[Sosa]

Yeah, that's specifically why I stated 'until higher levels.' I can see piling haste as being very useful, after you've done pretty much everything you can do with your evasion. At very high levels, I'd imagine you start to care a little less about evasion and focus more on accuracy/attack, but I'm still stuck in the AF levels... so I can't give a first-hand account on that.

Edit: (Tarick snuck a post in while I was writing...)

If the whm won't haste you, you're better off dying and hping.

+1

Coming straight from the mouth of a support job, there is absolutely NO reason that your White or Red Mages should not be hasting you. If you're not recieving haste consistantly, frankly, they suck. Tell them to haste you, and remind them that it's vital to your job. On strike three (major setback caused by lack of haste; near death after warning, ect.) - I'd disband. I get to put up with the same thing on Paladin, even if I explicitly tell someone not to cure me above a certain ammount and ask for refresh (I know the damn refresh cycle in my sleep, I can tell them within 3 seconds when it's going to wear off, usually more accurately than they can,) I'm lucky if I actually get it.

That just seems to be our lot in life...

[Jonathan]

Whether or not your timer resets after you engage a mob, doesn't matter, your timer is going down anyway as you approach the mob. (In KRT definitely, in burn pts not so much, mobs are slept very close to you so there's not much time for your timer to wind as you engage and approach) So haste for that purpose is often wasted

In xp @ 43 nin, I definitely have all day to engage the mob and let my delay's timer run while the mob runs into camp.

[nauren]

I often don't have a whm or rdm in my party..much less a good one. Once our main heal was a SMN with COR for refresh. We were fighting Date Eruca's...so I stayed slowed the entire time.

But I've only had one great whm since I've started to lvl my ninja that kept me hasted and I didn't have to ask for it....so if I ditched every bad Hasting party...I'd still be lvl 37-ish.

[tarick forgot to sign in]

you're positive it works that way? the time winds down then sits at 0?

In KRT I seem to recall still punching at different times when I engage, I don't hit the mob as soon as I get there. Also, you're typically (in a good party) already engaged on the next mob, not even disengaging, but you still have a delay after you run up to it.

[tarick]

nauren said:

But I've only had one great whm since I've started to lvl my ninja that kept me hasted and I didn't have to ask for it....

that sir, is insane.

[tarick]

I reread that thread this morning, and Aurikan has a long post, which he sums up with the following.

The only real concrete things we can say about haste are:
1) the actual potency of haste for your performance varies depending on party
2) if all the other DDs have more haste than you, then adding more haste is 100% efficient for the output of your party
3) the shorter the combat encounters, the more inflated a parser will be in favor of the person with most haste.

For statwhores, I think that is the most important item out of the thread.

[Virothix]

nauren said:

I had the Fuma Kyahan when they were available for my Ninja. Upon recieving my AF boots...I sold them and figured I could live without them. How wrong I was. I want them more then ever now.

I can't depend upon mages to keep me hasted. They have did a piss poor job lately. The Fuma combined with my swift belt help out immensly.

It very well could be the difference between living and dying several times a fight.

I know this is sorta off topic but Im compelled to say it.

Nauren you should hook up with me as my 63WHM. I keep all frontline hasted without a problem and most of the time being told Im a crappy WHM for it by the RDM who can't even keep ME refreshed. I have always hasted atleast the tank PLD or NIN since I got the spell but being a ELV WHM at 40 is almost impossible to haste everyone till about 50ish and thats only if you have a rdm or a brd and smn subed.