WS Mods vs TP Gear

[Aly will you kiss me at 12?]

Ok, I feel like an idiot posting this 3 years into my gaming career in FFXI, but I still do not understand how this works. Or I do understand but can't decide. IDK help me out here.

For example.

Blade Jin's mods are STR and DEX. Both 30% or some shit like that.

So when I get set to use a WS should I take out all gear regardless of its ACC or ATT + and swap in any and all + Dex/Str?

I don't understand how ATT/ACC/Stats effect a WS as a whole. I've always thought that ATT and ACC would be best because what good is a WS, especially multi hit, if I can't hit the mob.

Any suggestions or posts or links would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking at buying a Hauby. But at 73 I have a Shura Togi. I'm wondering if the plus STR/DEX on Hauby is worth the 2.5m or if I would be better off putting 700k into a bomb core for +12 attack in a slot that I have nothing in.

[LockeJV]

Hauby is great for WS because it has everything:

5 STR & 5 DEX for a +10 to NIN WS mods
12.5 Accuracy (including effect of +5 DEX)
12.5 Attack (including effect of +5 STR)

It's better for WS than Shura Togi (10 acc / 20 att), because +10 to WS mods > 7.5 attack.

When deciding between WS mods and attack, a general rule of thumb for me is to go with WS mods unless the +attack item is more than double the sum of WS mods. For example, Amemet Mantle +1 is +15 attack so use that over Commander's Cape which is +6 (+3 DEX / +3 STR).

You need accuracy for Jin to be effective since it is multi-hit. I always use sushi because I'm gimp and only have 2 merits for katana (NIN) and none for dagger (THF), and they're both A- skill. But the nice thing is I don't have to worry about Accuracy at all, for TP gain or WS. Sushi takes care of it, and I just pile on Haste / Attack not really worrying about accuracy.

If you have the merits and haste and accuracy gear, you can be much more effective eating attack food (Red/Yellow Curry, Bison Steak, Coeurl Sub, Arrabbiato, Sis Kebabi...). While eating meat, with capped weapon skill and +30-40 accuracy, you'll parse 90% accuracy in the Mire, 70-80% in Thickets. Some people can't stomach anything less than 90% and eat sushi in Thickets, even with capped merits, PCC, etc.

As far as non-sushi NIN and acceptable +Accuracy for WS, I'm not sure what their rule of thumb is (THF doesn't have to worry about WS accuracy because they generally stack Shark Bite with SA in merits, guaranteeing 2/3 hits, and not caring if one misses). Again, since I eat sushi I don't worry about it too much.

As far as Hauby vs Bomb Core, I think the Bomb Core kicks serious ass for TP Gain. But Hauby is the best WS piece by far. Both essential. I'd get Bomb Core first and save up for Hauby.

NINs can land 1000 dmg Jin's, but that's generally only after you're sporting Osode/Haidate for +35 to WS mods in 2 pieces of gear. And even then 1000 DMG Jins are luck based on 2x attack and a lot of crits kicking in during WS. I think high parsing NINs do most of their DMG in normal DoT since Jin is really a weak WS compared to most others. Crank up that Haste and +Dual Wield and Attack and let the DMG fly.

[tarick]

krazi said:

Ok, I feel like an idiot posting this 3 years into my gaming career in FFXI, but I still do not understand how this works. Or I do understand but can't decide. IDK help me out here.

For example.

Blade Jin's mods are STR and DEX. Both 30% or some shit like that.

So when I get set to use a WS should I take out all gear regardless of its ACC or ATT + and swap in any and all + Dex/Str?

I don't understand how ATT/ACC/Stats effect a WS as a whole. I've always thought that ATT and ACC would be best because what good is a WS, especially multi hit, if I can't hit the mob.

Any suggestions or posts or links would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking at buying a Hauby. But at 73 I have a Shura Togi. I'm wondering if the plus STR/DEX on Hauby is worth the 2.5m or if I would be better off putting 700k into a bomb core for +12 attack in a slot that I have nothing in.

I wouldn't really worry about any of it too much...the monk will be tanking anyway.

[tempus]

Not specifically for WS, but just in general:

IIRC, ATT raises the possible damage and STR raises the actual damage.

Just using rough numbers for an example. Lets say your Possible Damage is 100 per hit. So you will do 1-100 dmg per hit, averaging somewhere in the middle of course, lets say dead middle @50. Adding ATT ups your top end, so instead you can do maybe 1-110 dmg per hit, with your average dmg being 55 now. Adding STR, while it does add a bit of ATT via the 2 str = 1 att ratio, mainly ups your dmg within the range of what you can do. So lets say instead of 1-100 and you do 50, (ignoring the ATT from str for the moment), you can do 1-100 and you average 60.

I may have this backwards btw with str raising max and att raising average, so dont quote me. >=)

In any case, lets say you max out and have +50 STR, well your max dmg is still only 100 (again ignoring att from str), but you will do the high end of the curve more often.

The flip side is maxing out ATT, we'll assume +50 ATT here as well. Now your max dmg is 150, and you'll average somewhere in the middle of the curve.

So in general, you want str AND att so that you raise both your maximum dmg and your average dmg. I didnt explain this very well, sorry, there's a post somewhere on KI that does a much better job with examples etc. Think its buried in the DRK forum though. =P


Now ACC versus DEX is a bit more iffy. Dex is an obvious modifier for ws dmg, whereas acc just helps you hit all the swings on multi-hit ws. Also remember that WS have primary and secondary modifiers. IIRC, dex is usually not primary? IDK, I prolly wouldnt swap out acc for dex, though I might swap acc out for att/str, especially if using sushi like us lazy folks do.

-t

[tarick]

loldrk.

that's so wrong...you probably should just delete it and start from scratch XD

STR ups the curve.
ATT brings you closer to top end of the curve. (gives more consistency)

General rule of thumb, if you're hitting for the same number every time, you need more STR, if you're hitting for a wide range, you need more attack.

As far as WS modifiers go, I find them only to be really worthwhile in the slots where you'd get a bunch, much like Locke said. Having gorgets allows me to sub out accuracy gear for vit+ or str+ for ws. Since I assume nin hits alot like a mnk, they probably don't hit attack cap (and since you won't use meat for mnk, I'm sure you won't use it for nin). Therefore, you're adding alot more overall damage by getting an item that will be used for every hit than by getting a ws item. DoT is key, just like mnk.

[tempus]

I said I could be backwards, go reread the middle =P

So just reverse what I said about att and str, it still applies.

-t

[Aly will you kiss me at 12?]

Thank you for the input.

Locke would you use NIN AF+1 hands over Kotes when you get them for WS then?

[LockeJV]

krazi said:

Thank you for the input.

Locke would you use NIN AF+1 hands over Kotes when you get them for WS then?

Yeah, +6 STR (+3 attack) and +6 DEX > +15 Attack for WS, I think. If I had Bandomusha Kote (+22 attack) it would be a more difficult decision.

[Jonathan]

O. Kote are +20 Atk (but -5 eva, but if you can wear a hauby without thinking twice who cares), unless he meant H. Kote.

As for my view, with multi-hit WS, I find they're simply multiple hits with additional multipliers, and more often than not, maxing out your efficiency per hit is more beneficial than ws mods.

~Chikara-

Physical WS Damage Calculation:
WD: Base damage of your WS
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: difference between your STR and target's VIT. This can be capped (see below).
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR_30 (30% of your STR).
fTP: Multiplier (Please see chart below).
PDIF: (your ATK/target's DEF) Caps at 2.4 for melee attacks and 3 for ranged attacks.

Actual Damage of WS is then calculated in this way.
Melee Damage = WD * PDIF = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

The 3 variables you can control via adjusting your gear:

• your Str/target's Vit multiplier (which caps)
  
• Ws Mods' multiplier
  
• Your Atk/target's Def multiplier (which caps @2.4 for you)
  

-

I've also heard that WS Mods only apply to the first hit of your ws, so 1/3 jin's hits will be affected, and then your other 2 will be calculated as normal hits, probably with your tp's crit bonus applied.

On KI, the general concensus seems to be that WS Mods are overrated ^^b But for Nin, boosting Str/Dex you can't go wrong because worst comes to worse, shit, +Str is good for your ws mod, and it's good for your Str/Vit multiplier and I would imagine it raises each hit's max dmg. And your +Dex will increase your ws mod, increase your crits (ever so slightly admittedly) and give you Acc.

You're better off than a War or Mnk boosting vit >.>;
In the end, I bet it will have little to no impact. The simple fact that people aren't sure which is better is testimony to this. If you can't tell the difference, the difference isn't very great, and not worth busting your balls over. (Unless of course you've capped the Str/Vit multiplier and the Atk/Def multiplier - in that case you have nothing left to boost but ws mods)

[LockeJV]

tempus said:

IIRC, ATT raises the possible damage and STR raises the actual damage.

STR is added to your Weapon Damage...or lack of STR is subtracted from your Weapon Damage. This is referred to as fSTR, or the Strength function. (Your STR - Mob VIT)/4 is added (or subtracted) from your Weapon Damage, to determine your base damage. (fSTR is capped btw...13 for THF as an example)

So for example, if I'm using 35 DMG Dagger with 90 STR against a mob with 82 VIT, my base damage becomes 37 due to STR.

Base damage is then multiplied by the random attack multiplier. That's determined by (Your Attack) / (Mob Defense), which gives you the attack / defense ratio...which is then used to determine the range of the random multiplier your base damage will be multiplied by.

Here's an old interpretation of the chart: www.eternaldarknessls.com/pdif.gif

So if your attack is 500 and mob defense is 400, your attack / defense ratio is 1.25...which means, according to the graph, your random multiplier can be between 1 and 1.6.

So low damage per swing will be
35 (dagger) + 2 (str) = 37 base damage * 1 = 37

High damage per swing will be
37 base damage * 1.6 = 59

Weapon Skill uses the same principles but Weapon Skill modifiers are always included (30% DEX, 30% STR for Katana) and some include TP modifier (more DMG @ 300 TP, etc.) Can get kind of messy. Not to mention crits which raise the attack multiplier, then consider double attack going off sometimes, offhand hit as /NIN, blah blah blah...

[nauren]

Good stuff...so Hauby for WS's over Bomb Core for TP gain might be better at lower levels? Or you think thats probably situational?

[LockeJV]

nauren said:

Good stuff...so Hauby for WS's over Bomb Core for TP gain might be better at lower levels? Or you think thats probably situational?

I used a Byrnie for TP gain and WS because I couldn't afford Hauby...it would have been nice to have both. After I got Koga Chainmail from Dynamis I sold the Byrnie for a Hauby. Koga for TP Gain, Hauby for WS. I don't like the -evasion for TP gain.

I used Bomb Core all the time. And I still would use it all the time but I tossed mine last night about a minute after finishing my post >< It's down to 600k though so that shouldn't take much more than a few hours to earn back. Maybe I'll go camp it myself, but gilsellers are on it 24/7 I think.